Professor Diane Sullivan interviews Supreme Court Attorney Jules Lobel, Vice- President of the Center for Constitutional Rights. Jules Lobel is also a Professor at the University of Pittsburgh School of Law and the author of the book, Success Without Victory- Lost Legal Battles and the Long Road to Justice in America.

Professor Lobel discusses three of his cases, the first dealing with America’s outsourcing of terror, and in the second half of the episode he discusses cases having to deal with the military’s Stop Loss program and solitary confinement in supermax prisons.

Educational Video from The Massachusetts School of Law.

The following is a VERY rough transcript of the above video, Out Sourcing Terrorism by Jules Lobel. It was downloaded via YouTube machine transcriptions and has not been edited for accuracy or content.

welcome to the massachusetts school
of laws educational form
thank you for joining us
today’s program focuses on three important
public interest matters facing the u_s_ government’s
outsourcing of torture
second stop loss lawsuits meaning the involuntary
holding of american soldiers
beyond their contractual dates and finally
the issue of long-term solitary confinement
in super max presence
with a need for this discussion is a dream
court attorney jules lobel
who is vice president of the center for constitutional
rights and is involved in litigation on behalf
of the center
jules well that was a professor at the university
of pittsburgh school of locked and he is the
author of success without victory a wonderful
book welcome to the show jules thanks so
much for inviting me
can sell them in your house for today’s program
as i understand it
the u_s_ government has engaged in what apparently
is a wide-scale program of sending people
that we suspected he’d harassed
to countries where there is a strong likelihood
they will be tortured
this is being done to obey the restriction
on to address that point in our constitution
an under international law
hills tell us about the case that you’re involved
in
i’m representing a canadian businessman
the maher are are
who was on vacation with his family and his
company back in ottawa said
we need your week like for you to come home
and he flew from switzerland back to ottawa
if he had gotten able to get a direct flight
he was done that
i’ve gone straight back to the the only way
to fly was to go through kennedy airport
hi and all he was doing it in the airport
was not
trying to get into this country
but simply transferring explain to ottawa
when he got off the plane at kennedy
he went how to go through customs
and the u_s_ and immigration officials pull
them off for the line
and said you’re on the list that we have we
suspect through being
having information about terrorists
of knowing some terrorist
and eight detain him
he protests that he said he didn’t know anything
about what they were talking about
but nonetheless they took ‘em and hold them
for two weeks
in solitary confinement
in brooklyn
and the metropole detention center
and questioned him very cautiously
and he kept on denying any
any knowledge of this he didn’t understand
the what they were
talking about
as we have an attorney at this point know
he does not have been a tornado given rights
for an attorney don’t let them see the canadian
consulate
he’s on his own and they just keep on
haranguing him that they’re not torturing
him but they’re hiring in the questioning
partially
and they finally say to him
well within the released you know
we’re going to send you to syria
now he says if you send me to syria
felt orchard because he was originally from
syria but his family moved to canada are very
when you’ve got a very young
when he came a canadian citizen but his apparent
told him
one of the reason they let syria
is because they torture people
and our state department
have every year comes out with human rights
report in which they say syria in gauges inconsistently
torturing people using very brutal methods
beating them using dogs on them
sometimes burning prisoners holding in
the mid terrible conditions forcing them to
make concessions and everybody knows that
and everybody knows this this is it documented
by our
state department and one of the reasons
and the president and state department
facials constantly
say the syria you’ve got a change in human
rights practices and one of them is their
consistently supported
so allot says to them
if you send me to syria though part of me
and they say we’re gonna send you to syria
anywhere they take them
again without an anything any attorney without
giving it any chance of challenges
they put him on a private jet
which we now know it’s been used for hundreds
of these renditions
and they take them for washington
from washington they fly into jordan
and they apparently the new york times gotten
hold of the three planes logs and this has
all been confirmed tm at jordan he’s then
sent over to the syria border and he’s held
by the syrians
for one year
without any charges without any evidence
against them
and in that year what mister rotblat what
happened it happened namely he was very brutally
tortured
they began when he refused to confess
they began beating him
they took these cable wires and beat him over
his hands
they kept them in a dungeon
literally a dungeon without any windows
where rafts
would called both through the around the
cell and write over
you know there was a great ride over a pan
am grass growing in out he’d be
hearing screams from other people and maybe
saying we’re going to do this to you too
and this went on for a year
now are these other people that are being
held for georgia
you have these were serious i mean they
were they were the people being
in this his situation but they were syrians
who were being tortured
and they said this is what we’re
doing feel when they did this some of this
time
but part of the torture was hearing what other
people were going for him in that
he said they treated me like an animal and
at the end of whatever appeared time just
lose whatever you matter to you have
and of course he confessed
them because people confess anything of the
torture
but the syrians after a year and poverty to
protest by the canadian government
let him go
and said we have no evidence
against them that he is a
terrorist
you know we have been able to confirm
anything that he knows this person that he
was involved in anything
and therefore we’re not talking about which
is releasing
but that was after a year of his life monica
are you and we are of any of the basis for
suspecting hamel putting him on this less
they said
that he knew somebody who they suspected to
be a potent terrorist they did say he had
done anything
but they want to get information from him
about somebody else anthony allegedly net
he allegedly knew him who he says
he met once but he had no than no relationship
with no knowledge of
now does the u_s_ government denied that they
sent him to syria no they don’t deny that
they sent them to syria
and and the one other thing that was very
peculiar about this
is that the questions that the syrians estimate
corporate react that the call
to the questions that the u_s_ officials have
asked them
in the oc
over and over again and so we believe
that the syrians got or the information that
they were using from the american
directly
and the questions this was a simply sent them
to syria
and said see what you can find out
there was they will work in cahoots with the
syrians
to try to get
this information from them because his exact
same questions
while
but the question that we raise about this
and the question is this really presents
is why would you take a man
who you think might be terrorists who might
have information
it was a canadian citizen and then send the
instead of sending info i_ ally
who was helping us in the war against terrorism
canada
which is a citizen’s of in which he was going
to
and stated the canadians try to get the information
if you can
why would you send them to syria
which is a considered by the president
to be a part of the axis of evil to be part
of
the enemy
who is not our friend
in the war against terrorism to try to
to get this information and is only one
possible conclusion it could reach
which was they sent them to syria
to be tortured
yes because they knew that syria was going
to put your wasn’t that they
said well maybe he’ll go to syria and we don’t
know what all happen
the reason that they didn’t send them to canada
but instead sent them to syria even though
it was a canadian citizen
was to be fought what did they say in series
that they sent them
this area
they don’t give the reason
that they send series but they claim
that in all these traditions they get assurances
from the government is that syria and other
countries egypt
or morocco or jordan
they get assurances that the people won’t
be torture today no in fact they obligate
but we know that that’s not the texas is duplicitous
if the president
it’s outrageous quite frankly
arnelle’s someone argued
that in times of war
and with the memories of nine eleven behind
us we we are simply using aggressive
interrogations to protect the lives of many
right except that when you send somebody to
syria as you know that they’re not just going
to be using aggressive
techniques they’re going to be using torture
and this was a decision
not made by some low-level officials in new
york but this is with the decision made by
ask rocked the attorney general
and the top justice department officials so
in this case i think more than anything
the wise the whole i’ve dishonesty that their
that this thing in washington now that
whatever torturer card in iraq corporate cars
anywhere in the world
it’s some sort of some rollet soldiers who’ve
gone astray
in brno the rules would to dumb to know what
they were doing more
who who will who were evil doers and
far away
this
policy
was made by the highest levels of our government
and harare
was sent to syria
by the orders of the hot the highest officials
suggest org
and they knew what they were doing let’s take
that step further
the new york times recently reported back
when vision is being done pursuant to a presidential
order and in fact was signed by president
bush do you believe that’s accurate yeah i
height don’t have any information
on whether bush tracks actually assigned disorder
what i know it’s true
is that this is the policy of the united states
government and therefore
it was sent to reason that bush himself has
approved it
they may have not whether sometimes bush
doesn’t approve these things directly if the
attorney general they want to keep bush out
of it
the point is that this is an official u_s_
government policy approved at the highest
levels of our government
it’s not something that they could point off
by saying
we didn’t know about it we don’t know what’s
going on this is just a few people doing this
my understanding is under federal statutes
that it is a felony to conspire
to commit torture even if it’s done in another
country
in light of that what do you see is president
bush is responsibility yeah i think the president
is directly responsible or think he’s engaged
in criminal activity
both in the war crimes area which is also
statute
to commit a war crime i think the president
and the top
leadership donald rumsfeld in
and charge of this war against terrorism
have committed war crimes
and i think a responsible government would
prosecute
the high-level people who’ve set this whole
policy in motion
and wolf approved things like a ros rendition
another renditions
instead what they’re doing
if they’re going up to the the soldier
in the field
who was in a tough situation and who does
something wrong for which they should be punished
but it is outrageous
that the higher-ups in our government are
getting away scot-free
shifting all the blame
down for the lore people you know president
truman said the buck stops here
well in this case
the bach is stopping at the low level and
never getting to where the real responsibility
life finishes we can all see that
it doesn’t change to this it doesn’t seem
like the american people
really are outraged by now that ratio and
that’s not they should be
instead i think the american people say well
not all of the american people a lot of people
have been supporting mister arms so that have
been outraged by this
but this is section of the people say
well this is all justifiable because of the
war against terrorism
and i think it’s
unfortunate because in the long run it’s going
to hurt
america itself
for a number of reasons
do you think perhaps some of them members
of the general public
worry about the fact that you might have been
al-qaeda member
you might have a suspected terrorist who’ll
will not talk will invoke his right to remain
silent if you will
you do if your field full of another nine
eleven so we say whatever you do is okay
we glad to see them dead denies suffered
i think that’s a serious concern yeah and
i and i i i don’t wanna be with all that concern
and that that could happen
but i think sometimes it’s overblown but it’s
but it’s certainly a serious concern
but the problem is to say that torture is
permissible
in that circumstance is leads to a number
of problems number one
is thought portrait you say what what what
should a person who has
who knows that somebody’s plant the nuclear
weapon
in new york city spinach well don’t want fortunate
to get the information
you say well okay in that situation if you
allow it
then they stop torturing people routinely
and they say will will talk to people who
we think the terrorists
then they say will stop torturing people who
we think are evil in some other way right
and
in a_t_f_ you years to get down to the
point where
people being tortured routinely
and is that this kind of society that we want
if we’re saying this were against terrorism
is fourth about basic values
that if the values of democracy values of
law verses
the people who want to overturned
should we have to live up to our basic values
that we thought torturing people
isn’t that going to
defeat the essence
what we stand for
and i think that third thing is that it
actually
hurts war against terrorism
because it hurts are standing in the world
show it to you know the the just recently
they have been protests rather than in
afghanistan
where we’ve had to fire on
people protesting and killed
chemical testing the present policies in guantanamo
so people walk around the middle east
now
what’s been happening
and it’s creating morin searches more terrorists
it’s self-defeating
in that respect
and finally
you know one of the reasons supporters been
prohibited
is because law enforcement people say you
don’t get good information unreliable
totally unreliable in fact
one of the reasons
secretary of state powell said we know
that
iraq has
messed no weapons of mass destruction
one of the ways they knew was from an al-qaeda
informant
who said who when tortured
apparently by each other
gave me some information from bad to be totally
unreliable
face your policy on the information going
to get
from people being tortured you’re gonna have
a ronnie’s policy
so i think that %um
the for those reasons we should maintain absolute
borrow torture we shouldn’t let the government
say well catered for to somebody here is somebody
there because pretty soon it’s going to get
back to us and
you know they say first at
it’s like what happened in
you nazi germany
this
protestant minister anymore
who was a very famous minister
later on said
first they came for the
communists and i was in the communist
so i said go take them
i didn’t protest
then they came for the socialists and i was
a socialist
so i could not think purpose and they came
for the jews
and i was in that you so i said
i i’ve done not to protest the remain
file
and then they came from a
and there was nobody left the property
and that’s what’s going to happen if we keep
on going down this path
that you know we’ll see if it’s just the bad
guys the terrorists or the
you know how the bad guys but eventually
will come home to roost
so the question is what do you do about it
you know what if what if you really have somebody
in this situation
well you know one of their own leaders
of our country concepts and had
an idea which i don’t think is that they had
and maybe we should
portraits yeah i’d like you with that idea
jefferson said that sometimes
you might be faced with a crisis of some of
merchants say
and
that the president may have to act illegally
you know if if it was really this situation
right
i teach my class tonight on without thirty
harry to move out harry
you know when criminal has a little girl
caught
buried on the ground with twenty four hours
of oxygen
police officer captures the criminal should
the police off the bailout torture
i could piece would place the police officer
should he be allowed to torture
the
the desire criminal net to say this girl’s
life
and of course in thirty harry dot t_ breaks
every finger
meanwhile she had an issue
and i say
it should is still illegal to put a few
you shouldn’t let police officers
torture people haha even though you might
save this feels like but what the police officer
that might have been able to do
is to act illegally
but to say i have acted illegally and take
responsibility and be prosecuted
it’s a crime
he should have been prosecuted
and if the jury found that he had acted in
the best interest of this was that
best thing to do
maybe they should
acquitted despite that you know jury nullification
but
but if you have to go through that prosecution
the trouble now
is that our government is acting
it dishonestly
and they’re saying we’re not torturing people
they’re not taking responsibility for what
they’re doing tonight and they are doing it
and this is not to be in a few law school
larry velcro has written a series of books
and one of his main points
is that by a big problem in america they’ve
dishonesty yast and you see it at the top
levels of our government and that’s the problem
with this rendition
they know
your president bush
knows and he says on television we don’t engage
in fortune
we don’t engage in too much but at the same
time
they had knowingly sending people to
countries
to be tortured
and it said dishonest policy sharon and that’s
one of the worst aspects of it
and absolutely yes there are many reasons
against implant roger that one is a legal
to it’s unreliable and three it’s never limited
to just the guilty someone argue however there
are benefits my question to you is this if
you want proven that tortured wise reliable
if there were some means of torture that produce
reliable results would your position change
no i still think
that it’s a big against our basic values that
that
you know it’s it’s the same thing with the
death penalty
in a way
which is
i i one of the reasons to be against the
death penalty if they’re killing innocent
people you know it’s turning out but some
of the people or innocent
but even if they water
even if you could assure me
that everybody was spill
was being executed was %um
i still think
that it’s inhuman
punishment but watchers who is different than
the death penalty
because the death penalty there is this agreement
about torture
in the world as a whole it’s seen as a crime
there is there’s no country in the world that
says we
can openly torture somebody finale gratified
hold their convention against torture convention
unfortunately international covenant on civil
political rights
and for sure
there’s no doubt is both a legal and is a
crime
therefore for the government to be able to
say we’re still going to talk to people because
we know there a terrorist
is unacceptable it’s against our our basic
of what we believe we should stand for
jules will be right back
we need to take a break please stay tuned
it’ll be great
welcomes one abnormalities lungs week sky
munson steed
designer also wiesel will share their views
on creatures with bestseller contributions
there’s so much to do that for those so much
with the same
for the most
spans the globe
what do you want in the u_s_ children the
story
at a place that inspired it
since nineteen sixty one world wildlife fund
has helped save nine thousand constituencies
animals which can be found nowhere else on
the bit in areas like the galapagos islands
needs you i can’t seem to me
donors at one eight hundred homes and genuine
to find out about world wildlife fund’s living
standard campaign
and about our rehashing which includes information
on what was interesting
to have to leave our children
loopnet
remembered
favorable part of the samples to build the
stair
when they showed up for him and looks around
the place and stare into their own prices
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love a surrender
mentioned above her father
he left inside a fair price
sinhala
into morton
villanova bushel of apples in detroit
mallard literally hispanics
grittiness
dvds
scenario
my blvd
caring for others
omitted from the sunday june fourth better
life
and
but
television
welcome back to our discussion on towards
your were talking with supreme court attorney
jill sold out
jill jill client mister rock turned out to
be in a sense yes if it totally innocent of
anything
how many
would you estimate
of these rendition suspects turned out to
be innocent well could percentage n we know
for example that in guantanamo
they said were all week taking the worst of
the worst terrorist
and it turned out
that many of the people of montana had nothing
to do with terrorism
and we are also representing the people in
guantanamo
and a quite a few of been released
when it turned out that the court for going
to look into it
and turned out that they couldn’t prove anything
against them that they were totally innocent
so the governments of trust us
trust us we know who the terrorists are
and we will protect you
but what they’re doing is they’re picking
people up who they think might be terrace
and they turn out to be wrong a lot of time
but in mister art garage case he suffered
by year-end
the tension in syria and brutal torture
before he he would cut out
end and it’s it’s a awful situation of
this happening that
many many people
and the public
is not enraged because we don’t know these
people n we wanna feel safe and it’s also
kept secret it’s also
you know when we sued
on deafness brother government says he can’t
go ahead with yourself
because you he was in this country you
have no rights
but we were
prepared to litigate this
young and they thought they caught they might
lose
so now they’ve come back with a new defense
which is
all of this a secret
this is all based on secret diplomacy with
canada and syria
and we can release any of it and the case
has to be dismissed
because of the state secrets stock at that
doctrine
so the idea and this administration is taking
it to a new
we’re going to keep all of the secret and
keep it from the american people because of
the american people really have to confront
what was happening
i think they might change their mind c_p_
speak about the dean alas school writing
quite a bit of doubt
dishonesty and any spots another big problem
that he also addresses is the one you tension
and that is secrecy real problem in this country
today
let me show it feels that i’m clear on generally
how renditions works
india’s opprobrium whereby a person that is
quote is suspected terrorists who are suspect
for some reason is walking down the street
it could be in the middle east it could be
an african caribbean europe could be here
in the united states and and he laura group
appointed agents and i don’t know i v_c_r_
agents maybe you can let us know that
will up dot the person we have a d jet wading
they go into this disney jet
my question is who has its registered in probably
a dummy american corporation and they have
flown off to some country for torture there
is no representation of counsel in the family
doesn’t even know their whereabouts is that
accurate that is lip quite accurate that’s
what happens to many of the cases
that and and it’s not just people in the united
states people about that
in different countries around the world as
you say
and they’re given no due process so when you
say all these innocent people
we don’t know yes but what we do know is they’ve
been most of them have never been convicted
of anything
sound as if you take it convicted terrorists
and sending empty teacher you’re taking somebody’s
pulled off the street
itself
we’ll have a cent typically besides serious
as well for the serious one country egypt
apparently most of them have the the largest
number of people bid for the future
which has also a
reputation and history documented by the state
department
of brutally tortured people using all sorts
of techniques training dogs to tak
prisoners
trade out using water forms of torture
submerging people
but burning
people using electric shocks
all sorts of things which some of which
i i don’t even want to speak about on
television but
also support of portugal on any trip and
we know about it
he just another country
morocco’s another country and jordan is another
country
let me ask the question that someone losses
subject
how does this rendition program relate if
at all campbell greg
i think it’s directly connected
because
there is a policy again at the highest levels
u_s_ government
to condone
and to not only tolerate
but to engage in torture to engage in torture
by outsourcing
once that gets set in motion
the idea that low-level people
we’re going to get
and the soldiers in the field from the
kernels down for the projects
we’re going to get the idea that torture is
acceptable
and that creates the culture
avec reprint occurrence
pulled orchestrate ste
we outsourcing of torture isn’t done by the
c_i_a_ is it done by private enterprises does
have right now have a role in this i mean
i really don’t know the answer to the i_r_s_
i think generally it’s orchestrated by the
c_i_a_
but they are even may have for some of
it
into private corporations to help them out
it’s a it’s a combination of
various u_s_ agencies and private companies
buddies
orchestrated by the c_i_a_
how does the government get away with this
and when i asking that question i mean from
an international perspective as well as how
can we give it away with it with the american
people
well we get away with the american people
but keeping it secret
and by saying
we’re doing this to protect him
and it’s only a current too few people who
you don’t care about that your family right
outside your people and as i said i think
that in the long run it will come back to
haunt americans
but that’s how they get away with affirmative
record people internationally
they don’t get away with that there’s a huge
amount of protest
nobody wants to take on the american government
directly
what are you gonna bill you know the u_n_
if you would check
the u_s_ opal creek charade
well you-know-who insure that you don’t get
special treatment
and so it’s a it’s a very hard thing but i
think it’s happening
is that more and more resentment
is filling up against the united states
and eventually it’s kind of
fee for only shifted optics county audience
where you can stand suppressant right now
we’re before a district court judge in
new york
within the government is made a motion to
dismiss based on the state secrets
doctrine
and we are opposing that were saying that
for something like torture
you should not be a bit dismiss the case by
claiming diplomatic secrets or something like
that
and we want to get to the bottom what we want
is the truth to come out
and i hope i’m hopeful that the district
court judge wong dismissal case because we
have a very strong case
if they let us go forward
i think
cases in waves
the u_s_a_’s position as were not
rendering suspects for torture about were
simply deporting them back to their home country
might it be jet whether p_c_r_ your and is
that a different issue it if this a similar
shoots for different only every case mr our
space
it was in this whole country from countries
canada
in guantanamo
we’ve been arguing that they should release
people who’ve been on have any evidence that
they’re terrorists
and the government now said
okay we will release on
we’re gonna release the egyptians back to
egypt
will release the joy the syrians bacteria
and the district court judge said no you’re
not
because even though you’re just claiming
figure releasing them to your home about the
whole country
we know what’s happening here
in this country now the costs of print quarters
health these folks have to get a hearing
if you just send them back to egypt they going
to be tortured not going to go into a black
hole
so
the the courts are not allowing this to happen
because the argument began their which if
any of their home country is just another
duplicity sure except some of the first
final question
can america safeguard
it shorts without the use of torture
i think good police methods
good investigation
something will safeguard our assures
and that torture is the shortcut it’s a shortcut
that’s all timidly self-defeating
but if we relied on the methods that we have
used historically and which are proven
turbo track down and catch terrorist and if
we did in the way
consistent with the international community
to have to get people throughout the world
help us
i think that would be a better way of getting
keeping a safe
then using torture and and i also think that
acute problem in this is how to eventually
defeat terrorism
and the open the way to defeat terrorism does
not by creating more terrorist
and by using this torture you just creating
more terrace
jules thank you for sharing this information
with us let’s move on
do you represent and number of american soldiers
eight i believe in
iraq and kuwait who have had their contracts
extended beyond the time they agreed to serve
tell us about those cases
i think this case is best said look at the
outsourcing the portrait
because in both cases the theme is because
city
on behalf of the united states government
when you go down in your young soldiers you
sign up for eternity term reviews and these
people send i’m willing to serve
i’m willing to serve you can send it to a
very dangerous area
like a rack or if an if porn my term is up
should get out
and the u_s_ government is saying
even though we promised you that you’ll be
there for eight years
when you’re eight years is up we’re gonna
keep you have in death
the worst cases
a are a couple of our point of signed
up under a program
which was called to try it one program amherst
and this try one program is for
people were veterans
people were ready served
and they’re trying to get them to come back
and serve again in the national guard
and if you go look
on the army’s official website
they describe this program and they call it
a one-year trial program
took for returning veterans to see
if they want to
serve in the national guard and after a year
their promise
that they could either re signed for a full
term
or they can get out
and so
people signed up saying i’m gonna try one
and as the comedian
come decentralizing said
they try one and get one free can sell what
happened was
after year they fit my time is up by tribal
one year i don’t want it
alone
and the government has said
well we’re going to involuntarily extensional
under the sop force program for many years
the fact that we play at this
dot a notice
that he was extended business in two thousand
and
he was extended and he was going to be home
or out of the military december
twenty-fourth right before christmas
two thousand and twenty five
tooth out twenty one more twenty more years
and they’re claiming
that under military law they have a right
to involuntarily extent people for as long
as they want
so you try one
and instead of at the end of the one-year
trial
getting out
your you could be there for for a long time
how queenie soldiers sign up and usually is
their anything in small print
that says since they’ve done
government be on the evening air force the
navy may eight
and certain
in situations hold you beyond the state
their for some of them there was nothing
perhaps a lot of things
for some of them there was up fine
print in the contract which that in time of
war
we could involuntarily extend your contract
and
we argued
that in time of war but the cold war
that that was what they that’s what the history
of that perhaps caused meant
and that this wasn’t declares the clinton
white house but
but what is
still unfathomable to me
is why they can’t put in the contract in bold
print
that we can extend to whenever we want to
wit and their position is discs it’s just
that that when you sign a military contract
it’s not like a normal contract
normal contract i say i want to do work on
your house for a year
at the end of the year
you can say gotta work for five more years
a military contractors
president military claim
is after a year
we can keep you in for as long as we want
they should tell people that approx
well yeah should be you are right it should
be in big bold letters and in fact yes any
other business wire contracting with a private
citizen it would be deemed i’m conscious level
disney phyllis
bills i believe a harsh terms in small print
on the back page well and also particularly
when the military’s website
and the recruiters tell these people
this is the trial period and after a year
you can get out if you want that is fraught
before that for claim in this case our claim
is not a highfalutin claim of bruno constitutional
rights over
this is pure and simple fraud
it’s fraud on the american soldiers twenty
things that happen with the case well the
district court judge refused to enjoyin
the military from sending these guys and
a half but he did say if you could prove fraud
i will i will let them out of the contract
hi gennady where we’re going to go and we’ve
going to try to get the documents from the
military which is going up
hopefully what i see a jet
and see what their own
people said and my punches
the that we will be able to prove
fraud here
%um because i think it’s an openly dishonest
policy sure out so that’s what we’re hoping
will happen in this case that
that we can show
that this before june recruiting and
and i’ve noticed in the newspapers just
this week
that the military’s could have one day with
a not gonna recruit anybody
because has been widespread allegations and
a whole range of areas
that they go into high schools and the tell
kids one thing
men when they get into the service something
else happens
and and i don’t see how you could
maintain a volunteer army
with fraudulent recruited
because of in the long run again in the short
term
you might be able to get a few people to join
up
but in the long term people won’t believe
curtis anymore
now you know the sad thing is
as the kids to believe but the report is held
on i’ve had two people in the past month come
to me
thank god
with claims made by their recruiters and they
were just letting me know what am i thought
that the other internet it’s frightening to
me
and with many of the cases it’s just individual
recruiters frank
in this case
it’s a whole program flock
that is for trucks ok we need to take a second
break so please stay tuned and we’ll be right
back
tradition
this thing
now we still have to change things
statues
grants and incentives
finances shaky
and for items in your car
malice maintains
done here
bhai
didn’t want to go out there with your request
unanimously
colorado have been selected a new
the senate send men and women
less than one
side
fourteen years
team sleazy scarred
expound ground came in there
washers dryers
houses in the
these issues with my
land of the
villalobos introduces the context of latter-day
saints
there
gone
demand
welcome back to the educational form we are
discussing with jewels law about the situation
where american soldiers
are being held beyond their contractual dates
chills just to be clear for the audience we
all read
about stopped lost exactly what does that
mean
stop courses term that
refers to stopping the loss of soldiers
so the idea is that in time of war other emergency
you want to stop people from being from getting
out
of the military
and so
if their contractors over and they’ve served
their time and they’re supposed to get out
they say stop loss
and that means that you can’t get out
your your involuntarily extended
for a period of time and it was supposed to
be only for somebody who is
a critical essential element of military doing
a critical job
don’t want you to be able to leave
one of my clients within the army band
and i say won’t why is the tuba player was
an incredible wise a two-part play in the
army band
an essential element of the military where
he can’t get out and go on with his life after
he finished his term and all of these people
have finished
their required services are not trying to
get out early
they have finished and that military saying
even though you finished
we’re keeping you and
that seems to me that almost violate the thirteen
th amendment they’re keeping these people
in
almost as slaves
is a military doing this to any to avoid reinstituting
the draft
yeah they they say that we don’t know who
would otherwise we would be more manpower
you know people thought of course and
i guess the alternative is called a back-to-work
draft because they’re
involuntarily keeping people
it’s like a draft
the other alternative is to draft people
they don’t want to do that because the only
way they can fight these wars
is by not putting the burden on the american
people so they’re putting it on these few
soldiers
but if they had a draft
then they’d be huge protests about what they
were doing in iraq and afghanistan around
the world
and maybe the policies would come under
greater scrutiny
the trouble is that this type of policies
is gonna so in force recruiting which is way
down here
that it probably will we to a draft at
some point ’cause they can’t keep on fighting
these wars all over the world
and just rely on hoodwink and people ther
to fight and i’m he’ll look in your crystal
ball and see the supreme court ultimately
taking up your case in the end dating the
military’s top this program
i would hope they would have been records
have been generally very
deferential
to the military camp
the deferential to two institutions of society
for military and prison officials and %um
that’s why i’m not and i’m very optimistic
the court would come to a crack growing but
i hope they will
different topic kills tell us about this super
max case that you’re involved
you’re involved in in more importantly how
it relates to everything we’re talking about
today
problem american prisons that again americans
don’t
wanna see what’s happening
but if you look at america prisons to sample
today
in ohio and in states around the country
they’ve built these super max from prison
where people are put in for years and years
and years
in
tiny cell
the size of a parking space
where they see nobody else they caught the
nobody else they have almost fell you in contact
its long-term solitary confinement
and we know that this makes people go crazy
anne in ohio
i has been
the war against terrorism they were saying
trust us
we know who the most dangerous criminals ought
we know the people who are going to murder
people in prison
and will put them in the super max
and keep away
from the rest of the president’s and they
were giving them no process
taking them out of some ordinary prison
and dumping them in the soup max for year
after year after year
and long-term soccer fun we swept the court
we sued
and the district court said
put people in this kind of situation without
giving them a fair hearing
at least let them explain give them that charges
you have against them
let them call witnesses hotel people that
tell them that they’re not
dangerous that’d be these folks don’t belong
there so are you telling us that
in long term solitary confinement maybe
not somebody who has merited seven children
but in fact maybe somebody who received a
jury are judged sentence to life in prison
then or maybe not even life imprisonment in
and that person has been palm from the general
population of prisoners
and putting in long term confinement without
some type of a hearing reprises without any
real process
but the first paul
one of my clients in this case
was a man who had a good record prison he
was he he was in for
fifteen years of something but not life imprisonment
and he was waiting on the one flying of the
regular maximum security prison
and he was hit over the head respectful by
some other prisoner
and he didn’t fight back
and he went to the hospital got stitches
when he got out of the hospital the center
for the soup max
and they kept them in solitary confinement
for three years until we got a mountain told
the district court judge ruled you can’t keep
them there any longer and u_s_ for y
what happens name would you
put somebody
whose only offense was that he was that over
the head by somebody else
and didn’t fight back to judge the scratching
his head trout thing saying
i don’t understand that and that their answer
was
well because
we thought he was a gang
member and the gang members were being targeted
he was hit
and therefore he must be a gang member
and the judge to do you have any evidence
that they are threatened
there was no evidence
but they never gave up a hearing
and so the judge said you have to give all
these people fair hearing
when they gave all the people fair hearing
nine the almost ninety percent of the people
in this prison
or i think was little left eighty percent
let out
we’re going out after that there were three
hundred thirty people when we went to trial
the judge said you have to give all of them
a fair hearing now they’re forty eight
while who they serve the lord
and it’s the same thing like one pa tomorrow
guantanamo it’s the worst of the worst
terrorists
and we know
then they said we don’t want to give them
any hearing
no process
trust us
we’re protecting you
in the prisons
they say it’s the worst of the worst gangs
with members there
whereas
and they say trust of president bush holds
and %um
through the courts have been generally sympathetic
to the prison officials kind of letting them
to get away with this
and meanwhile there’s thousands of people
languishing in the long term solitary confinement
which we know again makes people go crazy
and and
without much hearing or reappear in court
notice or a rational decision
as to why these people put in there
vista court ruled in our favor in the court
of appeals to a handful of not favor
and now we just thought you did
and the supreme court cheat is it your position
in that long-term solitary confinement is
inappropriate for anyone or is it just certain
classes of people that you would object
kid is being used on
it in my opinion lifted inhumane
form of confinement take somebody
and put them for years and years and years
and the small little cage
where they don’t see anybody you talk to anybody
that’s inhumane and i would if i were judge
i would say that’s a violation of our eighth
amendment which prohibits cruel and unusual
punishment
but the courts have not been sympathetic to
those claims
and so we argue something
more modest
we said if you are going to put somebody in
that
positions
which we think you shouldn’t but if you’re
going to do that if you think
that they’re sold a dress
that this is the only way you can confine
them
not for thirty days and not for sixty days
but for a year but for years and years
then you at least have to give them
a full hearing
to make sure
this is a person who really needs this kind
of confinement even on the your view of it
and they weren’t doing that
and then you have to give them some way to
get out of it
you’ve got to be able to say
look if you behave yourself
over a period of time
you can go back into the radio processes
cosby and most of these people to get out
on the street
most of these people are not going to
with their whole life in prison and it’s frightening
to me
that you have somebody having spent ten years
all on their own
and then they say to them one day
the door to prisons open go out to be a productive
member of society again
it’s crazy
why would you do
if you are
the warden or the sheriff in u r overseeing
a present and you had a particular prisoner
doubt wise
four kabir attempting vicious assaults upon
other prisoners what would you propose would
be a humane way of treating that prisoner
but protecting the rest of the population
i i i do think the president
prison officials have a tough job in this
way
and i think if you give the person i hearing
you sure that this person is like this
not like my fellow who was that over the head
right or another guy who was transferred four
having marijuana in the present
he was in a minimum security prison had marijuana
make
bump them up this is not somebody like that
let’s say somebody of the water that you talk
about
i think you could
isolate them
but you should give them a program to should
give them a rehabilitation or you know
some kind of rehabilitation program
so that all over
they can show
that they’ve changed
my basic view of humanity is that people can
change i’ll keep and that all people have
the ability to change and you should at least
given that
the given the opportunity
if they prove that they can’t
then i’ll say
you can continue with this way
but they at least should be given the opportunity
to show
that they can
operate an abnormal prison we’re not talking
about releasing him
public now i understand the question of going
into another strictly controlled president
but that they should be they should have some
mechanism
proof that they can behave himself
idea many super max prisons
most states have to correct this is the root
for this
tens of thousands people
the super expresses
the state’s expert in our haha l case
said that if you are in texas
and you had a hispanic surname and you came
from san antonio
you were put into the super present
that there are thousands of people around
the country these persons
and nobody’s saying much about it
port tentacle offenders that would be sentenced
to a super mass person
what what most people are certain assistant
managers and it’s because
something you do with in in the present itself
you go to the maxim security prison
and you saw somebody or you get involved with
drugs or
and it’s supposed to be
just like one common was supposed to be for
the worst worth of paris
it’s supposed to be
category prisoners you describe people who
are official the assaulting people of murdering
people present
but what the district court judge found here
is that once you build a present
like this you have to fill
and so
they built for of prison for five hundred
cells
their own experts say we might have five to
ten people in ohio
suzanne ohio
that warrant this kind of treatment sure
but you can’t let this prison the five hundred
cells stay empty when you have a budget crisis
c gotta figure out who the planet
and that’s part of the problems that just
that they’re they are
warehousing people
because it’s easier
it’s because it
meets the budgetary constraints
describe if you want
the role of gains with an oppressor
well there is a big problem gangsta because
you have in ohio prisons and most benefits
your flight gangs the aryan brotherhood
blackberries the craft from things like
that and they enforce
some water among prison
presidents day in force
you you know they they run very few legal
operations drugs gambling
they a fighting and so it’s a serious problem
but the answer is that the fake everybody
with hispanic surname put him in terms of
max
i think if you do not have the gang leader
who knows again where
it’s proper to isolate them
but not forever and not
and not without some kind of
hearing process
jill’s few other countries do
what they’re serious offenders
some other countries
have solid long-term stockard
i know of no other countries in the
at least in the civil out here in in europe
i don’t know of any other country in europe
that has whole prisons
bypass that mac prism
they might have wanted to people
to fit your category
and who they
isolate
but they don’t lie slate pending in you mainly
so for that they don’t view it as punitive
they they isolate them and they give them
a range of activities they just don’t let
them interact
with the other presidents ‘em but it’s a handful
in our country itself faster than it’s the
same problem in the way like torture
you start with well there’s
one person who may be
marathons
and then it turns out skyrocket to tens of
thousands
the other thing i want to mention about these
prisons is that
what happened in abu grabe
with this kind of torture and the united
states by the way says
our own government
torture only occurs
when you brutally
hurt somebody you physically hurt one of their
organs like it the order
you chop off their arm
but that
when you just psychologically
harm them
you know when you do something which iraq
one of the techniques that uses
submerging people with water on the water
so you think you’re about to drown
u_s_ government says that’s not torture
because when the person gets out if they do
get out but assuming they get out of that
they don’t they’re not harm
did not physical harm
and a columnist pointed out which is true
what happen abu grave
if that they were sexually humiliated
if that happened in the american prison system
they would have been no claim
their prisoners could not have suit
would’ve been no damages
congress’ said
american prisons you can’t get damages unless
you can show physical harm
so mental harm psychological harm
is all seen as irrelevant
sold the most egregious acts that don’t miss
out and the physical impairment com
unpunished
under astonished
skills we are all the time i regret that i’m
thinking so much for bringing to our attention
things that are going on that we otherwise
just don’t seem to know about so i wish you
the best in your battles thank you so much
in thanks for inviting me
thank you charles
to live viewing audience thank you for joining
us today
please stay tuned for another episode of the
massachusetts school of law that will be seen
again next week at this time thank you